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LloydB

334 Rutherglen Rd circa 1900

Wondering if anyone has information about the name of
the business/establishment located here?  Or a picture?
Or the given name of the owner or licensee?

The following, from a Post office directory is all I have
(not even his first name, so far).

          M'INDEOR, L., wine and spirit merchant, 334
          Rutherglen road and 142 New City road ; house,
          8 Doneam st.

Cheers for any leads.    //  LloydB
norrie

Hi LloydB, 334 Rutherglen rd could well be in the Oatlands area of Gorbals
I will ask around
norrie

Hi Lloyd, I have been told that the address your looking for is Old Rutherglen road, more info to follow later tonight
Hopefully I have a photo of the area your asking about but it may well be a bit younger than 1900
cybers

1905 when yi got yir first Camera Norrie ?    
LloydB

norrie wrote:
Hi Lloyd, I have been told that the address your looking for is Old Rutherglen road, more info to follow later tonight
Hopefully I have a photo of the area your asking about but it may well be a bit younger than 1900


Hello again;

Looking at a satelite view of the area, I suspect that the original  
Rutherglen rd may have continued straight, past the location
where the turn or curve onto New rutherglen rd is, at present.  
That is, it appears to have continued (WNW?) straight through, or
alongside, the Oatfields area?  

(It seems unlikely that 'New Rutherglen rd followed the path of
the 'Old' one, and the satellite image seems to reveal the ghostly
remains of an earlier straight track.)

Perhaps Rutherglen rd. has become a "partially-lost" Glasgow street?

*************************

Further digging has identified this 334 address as one of the
locations associated with M'Indeor and Robertson, listed as
licensed grocers (Gowan) and also as:

M'Indeor & Robertson, wine and spirit mer-
 chants, The " Struan " Horse Shoe, 1 Main st.,
 52 Adelphi st, s.s., 88 Nelson st., Tradeston,
 334 Rutherglen road, 207 Mathieson street,
 and 142 New City road.

Lachlan M'Indeor and Donald Robertson (business partners?)

Could 334 Rutherglen rd. have been a bar (pub) or possibly
a combined grocery store and "tasting room" as they were
called in my part of the world?  (In the late 1800's, in my
town, there were an astonishing number of grocery stores,
many having spirits available in a 'back room'.)

I wonder, is it likely that this 334 location would have had it's own
name, or would it have been identified with the parent company...
part of a grocery or spirits distribution chain?

Cheers again; I'm still hopeful for a business name and possibly
a picture.
okaydoak

Just to clarify - Mr McIndeor's home address would have been 8 "DUNEARN" STREET,which lay within walking distance of his New City Road premises.I think that tenement still stands.Depending on what year the Post Office Directory entry comes from,it should be possible to find out more about him from the nearest Census.

Cheers,Chris.
LloydB

norrie wrote:
Hi Lloyd, I have been told that the address your looking for is Old Rutherglen road, more info to follow later tonight
Hopefully I have a photo of the area your asking about but it may well be a bit younger than 1900


Is it safe to surmise that Old Rutherglen road at one time connected
to the area farther SW, labeled Rutherglen Road (now a section of the A730)?
norrie

Hi Lloyd, this is the information I have received




Hi Norrie,
 
I've done a bit of digging this morning and I would conclude the following;
 
1) The address in question is undoubtedly Rutherglen Road, as number 334 would have been demolished by the time it was known as Old Rutherglen Road
 
2) In 1928 the premises at 334 were occupied by Alex Dunbar, spirit dealer, which means it was a pub
 
3) By 1948 the premises were now in the hands of Duncan Oliver, spirit dealer
 
4) I'm inclined to think the name is McIndoe, and the only Gorbals link I can find is in 1960, when a John McIndoe owned the Southern Dairy at 65 to 69 Cumberland Street
 
5) I've also double checked John Gorevan's website to no avail.
 
Did the enquirer give any sort of date for McIndoe (McIndeor) ?
 
Peter
LloydB

Thank you Norrie and Peter.

norrie wrote:
Hi Lloyd, this is the information I have received

Hi Norrie,
I've done a bit of digging this morning and I would conclude the following;
[snipped]
2) In 1928 the premises at 334 were occupied by Alex Dunbar, spirit dealer, which means it was a pub

[It seems it may have been a pub from the late 1800's, at least, but
I can't seem to find the name of it.  LB]
 
3) By 1948 the premises were now in the hands of Duncan Oliver, spirit dealer
 
4) I'm inclined to think the name is McIndoe, and the only Gorbals link
I can find is in 1960, when a John McIndoe owned the Southern Dairy at
65 to 69 Cumberland Street

[The name is, I believe, correct as given, a variation of Dewar?;
M'Indeor & Robertson were apparently a fairly large operation,
1880's through 1905 at least, and Lachlan M'Indeor (or McIndeor)
may have been in business in the 1860's, a good bit earlier.  
I'll need to consult census entries for that period.  LB]

[snipped]
Did the enquirer give any sort of date for McIndoe (McIndeor) ?
 
Peter


Again, thanks to both of you.   //  LloydB
norrie

Hi Lloyd, yes they connected the Oatlands part of Gorbals, A730
okaydoak

Hi Lloyd,

The only "L.McIndeor" that I could find in the 1901 Census for Glasgow was this gentleman,who seems a likely candidate:

-Lachlan McINDEOR,Spirit Merchant,b.1862 in Kilchoman,Argyleshire.

At the time of the Census,he was staying with his Currie aunt and cousin Lachlan at 69 Dale Street,Govan Parish.

Anything here ring a bell?

Regards,
Chris
LloydB

okaydoak wrote:
Hi Lloyd,

The only "L.McIndeor" that I could find in the 1901 Census for Glasgow was this gentleman,who seems a likely candidate:

-Lachlan McINDEOR,Spirit Merchant,b.1862 in Kilchoman,Argyleshire.

At the time of the Census,he was staying with his Currie aunt and cousin Lachlan at 69 Dale Street,Govan Parish.

Anything here ring a bell?

Regards,
Chris


Yes, thanks Chris, that's the gent.  I did find his name, but
not the other information.  So, he would have been in his early
forties (years of age) in 1905.

Yesterday I posted some additional factoids, but that post
is still 'pending approval' for some reason.  I must have done
something peculiar, (maybe responding within a quote isn't
permitted?)...but I'll send again, if it doesn't open.

Here's an interesting site about when McIndeor and his business
associate, Donald Robertson, opened the remodeled Struan
(Horseshoe) bar.

http://www.oldglasgowpubs.co.uk/struan.html

The name (if any) of the Rutherglen property eludes me.
Marblez

cybers wrote:
1905 when yi got yir first Camera Norrie ?    

Aye - and over 100 years later he's still shooting in black and white    
Stuball

The 1913-14 valuation roll for 334 Rutherglen Road states a shop owned by Edward J. Penney, Spirit Dealer.
Stuball

Dale Street was Bridgeton and there doesn't appear to have been a number 69 on the valuation roll
Stuball

142 New City Road, Shop, James McHugh, Spirit Merchant (1913-14 valuation roll)
Stuball

LloydB wrote:

M'Indeor & Robertson, wine and spirit mer-
 chants, The " Struan " Horse Shoe, 1 Main st.,
 52 Adelphi st, s.s., 88 Nelson st., Tradeston,
 334 Rutherglen road, 207 Mathieson street,
 and 142 New City road.


I'm just picking addresses here...

52 Adelphi Street shows as a painter but 54 is Spirit Dealer, a Mr Thomas Murphy

88/86 Nelson Street - Spirit Dealer owned by the Trustees of Anthony McConaghy.
LloydB

Stuball wrote:
LloydB wrote:

M'Indeor & Robertson, wine and spirit mer-
 chants, The " Struan " Horse Shoe, 1 Main st.,
 52 Adelphi st, s.s., 88 Nelson st., Tradeston,
 334 Rutherglen road, 207 Mathieson street,
 and 142 New City road.


I'm just picking addresses here...

52 Adelphi Street shows as a painter but 54 is Spirit Dealer, a Mr Thomas Murphy

88/86 Nelson Street - Spirit Dealer owned by the Trustees of Anthony McConaghy.


**************************

Wow! he said, that's some useful digging... Cheers!  

Many of the Post Office Directories found online are scanned
in, with character recognition software that too-often failed.  

A number, or a selection of letters could easily be off as a
result of original transcription errors or the scanning, etc.  
54 may well have been the intended address.

I found the following just today:

1926:  Shearer, John, wine and spirit merchant,
         334 Rutherglen road;
         tel. No., South 1148.  

(20 years after the time period I'm concerned with)

Earlier in the thread, Peter provided:

   "2) In 1928 the premises at 334 were occupied by Alex Dunbar,
        spirit dealer, which means it was a pub
 
    3) By 1948 the premises were now in the hands of Duncan Oliver,  
        spirit dealer"

It seems the 334 establishment was a pub for a period of something
like 70 years, quite possibly longer.  It looks to have changed owners
(or proprietors) frequently in the later years.  

But -- there's no record, yet, of the pub name or names over the door.  


I can't help wondering: could the pub have been established when the
building was constructed?
okaydoak

Hi Lloyd,

The large scale Ordnance Survey Maps for Glasgow in 1894 show that there was already Licenced Premises at 334 Rutherglen Road (the south-east corner with Mathieson Street) on that date.Unfortunately,the 1854 Ordnance Survey Map shows the building existing,but doesn't identify its internal use.

Incidentally,Mr McIndeor's home in 1901,at Dale Street,Goven Parish,was not at the present-day Dale Street in Bridgeton.Dale Street,Tradeston,is now known as Tradeston Street.It would have been a 15 minute walk to the Premises at 334 Rutherglen Road (or a short tram ride).

I may have missed something,but what exactly is your interest in 334 Rutherglen Road?

Regards,Chris.
okaydoak

There is a photograph of the pub in 1955 on the Virtual Mitchell website (under Mathieson Street).Hopefully somebody with a bit of technical skill (unlike me!) will be able to bring it up for us.Operating as "Ropers" in the photo.
LloydB

okaydoak wrote:
There is a photograph of the pub in 1955 on the Virtual Mitchell website (under Mathieson Street).Hopefully somebody with a bit of technical skill (unlike me!) will be able to bring it up for us.Operating as "Ropers" in the photo.


Thanks, I was able to have a look at the photo.

334 Rutherglen rd was at the corner of Mathieson,
then?

It's a puzzle, isn't it, when the streets are changed
around or gone entirely?  I'll have to search out a
map from the period.
norrie

Hi Oakydoaky there was a pub in Mathieson st ,Ropers right enough but it was at the corner of Mathieson st and Cumberland st?
I have a 1953 OS map and it shows pub at the corner of Old Rutherglen rd and Mathieson st but its not 334, number sequence goes from 330 on the corner opposite to 338 on checking for other pubs none of them appear to have street numbers, thats strange
No matter, there was a pub at the corner.
From the book, "Benny" it tells you there were 118 pubs in Gorbals, some of them displayed the owners name but I cant find Mcindoe
I will see if I have a photo of the corner that being asked about
norrie

This the one I have , I got it from the Planning Dept and its titled Cumberland st and Mathieson st, now I am wondering if its been wrongly titled

No, its right enough, the church you see is St Francis Church, so its not Ropers we are looking for


LloydB

norrie wrote:
This the one I have , I got it from the Planning Dept and its titled Cumberland st and Mathieson st, now I am wondering if its been wrongly titled

No, its right enough, the church you see is St Francis Church, so its not Ropers we are looking for




Google Earth shows the current address: 300 'Old' Rutherglen rd
at the intersection of Waddell st.  Strangely, the 300 addresses
continue down ORrd -- across that intersection and to the SE.

I cannot find any Mathieson st. in the area -- has there been a street
name change here, along with street numbering changes?

Perhaps that 1953 OS map will inform me, is it available online?

There is very large structure across from that intersection, which
I could assume is the same church structure?

I suppose what with street improvements, name changes, numbering
changes, the only remaining reference, in that photograph, may be the
church architecture.
LloydB

LloydB wrote:
[snipped]
There is very large structure across from that intersection, which
I could assume is the same church structure?

I suppose what with street improvements, name changes, numbering
changes, the only remaining reference, in that photograph, may be the
church architecture.


After a few minutes in a Google Earth street view, it's clear that
the structure is large, but certainly not a church.

Color me ignorant.  
norrie

Hi Lloyd, the map I have is just part of the Gorbals area, I bought it from Mitchell Library
The side of St Francis would be where Mathieson st was, houses have been built across it

There is very little of the old Gorbals left, St Francis Church, Twomax building, one tenement in Gorbals st, one in Norfolk st, an old Greek Thomson church in Laurieston rd, a church on Pollokshaws rd, Abbotsford School(business centre now?) Adlephi st school and some other bits and bobs
norrie

Hi Lloyd what street are you looking at?
LloydB

norrie wrote:
Hi Lloyd what street are you looking at?


Hi Norrie, and thanks for your clarifications.

Old Rutherglen rd is what I dialed up on Google Earth,
but whether any of the modern Postal Address numbering
corresponds to those in use in the early 1900's (?) is something
I cannot guess.

Google Earth is none too precise for that area, but shows
300 Old Rutherglen rd [today] at the NW corner of the
intersection with Waddell, across from what appears to be
a very large housing unit.  A bit further down Rutherglen,
(SW, on the opposite side), Rutherglen intersects with
"St. Francis Rigg".

(On the older OS Map, is Waddell street shown, anywhere
near the 330 block?  Or is there any other named street?)

Again, I have no idea whether this current location provides any
useful information about the 1905 (334 Rutherglen rd) location
that I've been trying to 'resurrect'.

Indeed, the entire Gorbals area does appear to have been wiped away,
excepting (possibly?) that short section of Rutherglen rd and some
other roadways.

The historic physical location of 334 is of some interest, but I'm more
concerned with identifying the nature of the activities that went on in
that location.   (Was it a bar? That seems most likely).  And who might
have actually been the on-site personnel in 1905?

It's a bit like digging a deep hole in dry sand, sometimes.  
norrie

Hi LloydB, not sure if you seen my post, this is the info from Peter


2) In 1928 the premises at 334 were occupied by Alex Dunbar, spirit dealer, which means it was a pub
 
3) By 1948 the premises were now in the hands of Duncan Oliver, spirit dealer


Alas, I dont have any photos of Mathieson st, Old Rutherglen rd.
Mathieson street would have been in between the now Elizabeth Gardens and the left hand side of St Francis Church


Hope this helps
LloydB

norrie wrote:
Hi LloydB, not sure if you seen my post, this is the info from Peter


2) In 1928 the premises at 334 were occupied by Alex Dunbar, spirit dealer, which means it was a pub
 
3) By 1948 the premises were now in the hands of Duncan Oliver, spirit dealer


Alas, I dont have any photos of Mathieson st, Old Rutherglen rd.
Mathieson street would have been in between the now Elizabeth Gardens and the left hand side of St Francis Church

Hope this helps



Hello again;

I'll try to look up that location;

I did see your/Peter's earlier post -- I'm still wondering if today's
Waddell street is anywhere near the original 300 block of Rutherglen rd?

To answer an earlier question -- my original interest was to understand
the inscription on a pocket watch offered for auction:

www.ebay.com/itm/1898-SILVER-PRESENTATION-FUSEE-POCKET-WATCH-BY-HOLLINS-OF-LONDON-amp-COVENTRY-/251538089301?autorefresh=true

I wasn't able to buy it (my pipe band had a gig at the wrong time)
but I'm still motivated to solve the puzzle:  What was the nature
of the establishment at the 334 address (probably a bar) who was
the on-site operator, and (less importantly) where was it located?

I believe the watch was presented to Alexander McLean, who had
previously operated The Garscube Bar (295 Garscube Road) but
the connection between him and the Rutherglen address is (so far) unknown.

Ah well, more when it happens.  I'll post a summary of what I/we
have uncovered, once that 'more' becomes available.

Cheers ...    Lloyd
norrie

Hi LloydB, Waddell st ran from Adelphi st to Old Rutherglen rd, still does, its close to where Mathieson st was
The street, either side of St Francis Church were Mathieson st and Sandyfaulds st, only Sandyfaulds st survives, at one time you could drive down Waddell st across Old Rutherglen rd and end up in Cumberland st via Sandyfauld st
Hope you solve your mystery

I will see if I have copies of older maps of that area
okaydoak

You are right with the location of the photograph,Norrie - I should have checked it more closely when I found it (I was too keen on Saturday to see a bit of sun out at Loch Lomond).It was the church opposite the pub which threw me - it was the Augustine UF Church which was at the other side of Rutherglen Road from no.334,and that confused me.

Lloyd,thanks for clarifying your interest in no.334,and putting up the EBay item entry for the inscribed watch.

For large scale maps of the Gorbals (and the rest of Scotland too) in 1854 and 1892,don't forget that you can always access them at the Map Library section of the National Library of Scotland website,and this should clarify the exact location of the Pub (no.334) at the corner of Rutherglen Road and Mathieson Street.
LloydB

okaydoak wrote:
[snipped]
Lloyd,thanks for clarifying your interest in no.334,and putting up the EBay item entry for the inscribed watch.

For large scale maps of the Gorbals (and the rest of Scotland too) in 1854 and 1892,don't forget that you can always access them at the Map Library section of the National Library of Scotland website,and this should clarify the exact location of the Pub (no.334) at the corner of Rutherglen Road and Mathieson Street.


Cheers for that, I will consult the maps and other sources
as time permits.

Alexander McLean was almost certainly the recipient of that
presentation pocket watch:  From 1891 until 1902 he had
been the licensee of a different bar (The Garscube Bar),
and I have no difficulty thinking that he may have operated
this bar at 334 Rutherglen rd for the owners, from 1903 until
moving on to his "new position" in 1905.  (That's not confirmed,
of course, just a working hypothesis.)

I haven't found any later Post Office Directory information
online, and haven't yet consulted the census listings for
Alexander McLean.  He's shown as "residing at Grenholm
Villa, Busby, ho. Athole villa, Viewmount dr., Maryhill.

I'm still baffled, how a bar with such a long history
has no name recorded.  // Lloyd
norrie

Hi Lloyd, some bars had the owners name displayed outside
Gorbals had plenty of them but no McIndoes
Sorry I cant help you with name of the pub your looking for
norrie

Hi Lloyd I just checked your link to the watch, I can see why you have the interest, why engrave a watch with just the address of the pub and not the name of it
Could this man have been a manager that was moving on? who knows
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